Despite our best efforts to dissuade you, many of you have still decided to write to us with your problems, complaints and crises of the moment. We don't have a trained therapist on staff, and this isn't "Dear F*ckin' Abbey", but we DO have Bonnie, who has graciously volunteered her time and heartless perspectives in order to minister to (or macerate) the misguided, with "Dear Fuckin' Bon..."

April 10, 2003

Hello,

I was reading through your "nice guy" topics. I didn't read through ALL of them yet, but I'm going to respond with what I have read so far. Of course, I'm going to be talking about myself when I talk about the "nice guys," because that's why I was there in the first place, I wanted to see why women don't like "nice guys." The typical thing that people were pointing out is that nice guys are insecure, "only feel happy when the love of their life is around," boring, or unattractive. I don't think of myself as insecure. Yes, everyone has some insecurities, and some have more than others. I do have my own share of insecurities, but it's nothing that makes me appear as a low life freak with no self esteem. I don't find myself boring. I can be the "life of the party," make people laugh, etc etc. I've been told many times that I have a really great sense of humor. I don't think I'm unattractive. Though it may sound cocky, I actually find myself attractive, and have heard of many girls say that I am attractive or "hott." Now, I don't want that to sound like I'm full of myself. I'm not. I do have confidence, but I'm not overconfident. I'm just letting you know that I don't sit here and talk about how great I am when I talk to a girl. heh. Yes, I am the guy that likes to help girls out. I'm always that person that a girl comes running to, need a shoulder to cry on, etc etc I don't think I'm depressive or unassertive.

So, if you don't relate to the "nice guy" profile as written about HERE, the ones who blame the women for their inability to get dates/get laid or have a relationship, why are you identifying as a "nice guy" TO US? Yes, everyone has insecurities, but the guys that the HB rants specify are the ones who do depend on and hold women responsible for their happiness, or who manipulate and cling, or who are unattractive in some way, often because they're so focussed on why they are not getting laid that they don't appreciate a friendship with a woman. In short, women aren't quite real people to them, they are a goal or prize.

Incidentally, boring people don't generally tend to find themselves boring.

As to the "guy who likes to help girls out", I think you should look at that dynamic and your reaction to it. Do you enjoy helping for the sake of helping, and why specify that you're the GUY who helps GIRLS out? Do you help out your guy friends when they need it? Sounds like on some level you're expecting some kind of payoff from the girls, at least. As for being helpful or the "shoulder to cry on", do you then resent it if she doesn't show more interest in you? Do you let any GIRL do this or just friends? If it's a friend, do you say anything if she has a pattern of getting burned and whinging to you? If so, you're not a very good friend to encourage that kind of pattern rather than encourage her to take responsibility for herself and find a way to avoid that hole in the sidewalk (tell her to put up or shut up, in other words).

In any case, these "kindnesses" are not barter, you know, and that's why that type of activity was brought up repeatedly in the "nice guys" section. The "nice guys" pattern of a guy helping a girl and then resenting that she doesn't see him as anything but a friend (or doormat, perhaps) is what has been held up to the light in those rants. You obviously didn't get that or you wouldn't have even mentioned it here, would you have? Oh, and if you're NOT depressive, you should know it, and perhaps be more...say, ASSERTIVE about it.

Yet, for some reason, I'm always the guy that a girl will say is "just a friend." A lot of the times that means "eeww, he's ugly. I couldn't ever picture myself in bed with him! yuck!" and is just said to be a nicer way of rejecting the guy. But I really don't think that's the situation. Recently I've met a girl (who I already knew thought I was attractive) and I talked to her for 3 1/2 hours straight. We talked about in depth things, she told me about her different problems and such, and also talked about other things. Now this might sound good that she feels like she can just open up to me the first night talking to me, but, she said that first night that she viewed me as "just a friend!"

The only real problem that I could see is that I'm too nice or too "sweet." (my ex told me that before). I don't understand that. I would love to have a nice and sweet girl... someone who listens to my problems, will tell me that she loves me, what she loves about me, etc etc. (of course, they can't overdo it!). I don't see what's unattractive about that? I don't compliment them in hopes that they will like me for it. I'm not "there for them" in hopes that they'll like me. I do it because I like to. If I find a girl to have pretty eyes or nice hair, then I'm going to tell them. If I want to listen to a girls problems, then I'm going to. But is this what's making me give off a "just a friend" vibe? And really, what can I do about that? Or are there other possibilities for the "just a friend" attitude?

Sad, Dejected, Bummin'

Oh, boy. Again, you need to look at the dynamics. First of all, for a relationship, women (how old are you and the "girls" you're going for, anyway, and why are they "girls" and you are the guy and not the "boy"? That may be something to think about too) don't necessarily base the potential on whether or not they can "picture" themselves in bed with you. If that's part of your criterion when talking with any girl (let alone if you ever meet any actual women) that's not an attitude that you hide anywhere near as well as you think you do. You may be giving off either a desperate vibe or just a horniness thing that is unattractive when people are trying to get to know each other. The fact that the girl you talked with felt a need to prophylactically tell you she viewed you as "just a friend" so early in your acquaintance indicates that you were certainly giving off some kind of needy (or needy-wanty) vibe. You seem totally unaware that many emotionally needy people will make themselves available to "listen to problems" as a way to have attention and company without making themselves truly emotionally available to the other person. That's also a way to have much more control in a relationship, if you know all her problems and issues, but don't share those things about yourself. I wonder if that's the meaning of "too sweet and nice". On the other hand, maybe she just didn't want to be involved with some GUY who was often running off to rescue girls or to spread niceness around. Are you going to like it if your hypothetical "nice sweet" girl is always running to the rescue of other nice guys and listening to their problems? When will the two of you find time to spend together? Because if you only do that with the one(s) you're targeting for a girlfriend, then you are definitely manipulating your "niceness" for the payoff, and demonstrating a different attitude towards girls you're romantically/sexually interested in. Either way, I'm not buying all the altruism you're trying to sell here.



And Jumpy Twitchy Nice Guy Two:

Someone Doesn't Know the meaning To NICE GUYS!!!

I do believe that would be you!

While a couple of the statements ring slightly true, It's because A nice Guy has his own life, and would like a WOMAN that has her own life.

Not the ones those rants were talking about. Did you read any of them? Did you grasp what they were saying?

A nice Guy, Wants an intelligent Woman, so he can have a meaningful conversation with. A Nice Guy cares not Who makes more money, only if you and him are getting fulfilled and enjoy you work.

A Nice Guy, Doesn't Force a woman to do what she doesn't want to do, so why should he be forced??? When He loves A Woman He loves With his Entire Body Heart and Soul. He knows right away if you meed this standard, and doesn't Date Girls or Bitches that claim to be the above. A nice Guy Has lots of female friends and is totally able to interact with a person not able to be his match.

It's too bad you feel so passionately about your real or imagined woman that you can't be a lot more clear what parts you related to that made you feel as though we were talking about YOU as a "nice guy". I mean, I have to assume that you wrote in a lather and overabundance of Caps to make a point about either how you aren't a "nice" guy as defined by the rants on HBI or... something like that.

I think you also run into a problem when you are "loving" someone with your "entire heart and soul" (whether or not you keep your body just to her is hopefully something you have discussed). If you sign over your heart and soul to one person, any one person, you are no longer in control of your own life. Anyone who will change any- and every- thing about themselves because they love someone else much more than themselves has no self-respect or backbone. The old treacle about loving yourself first is true, as is taking responsibility for yourself, which you can't do if your "entire" heart and soul is in someone elses control. So while it reads all dramatic and torridly "romantic" the way you write it, it doesn't really play out in real life. There is no room for compromise or personality in that particularly revolting phrasing.

Oh, and who is "forcing" your hypothetical nice guy to do anything? Where did you get this from? And he doesn't date girls or bitches who claim to be what? You lost me in that convoluted little splutter.

The tricky part is his reaction to a girl that is, his match, He has spent so much time looking, that he sometimes forgets that he has to actually interact with this Woman. Leading to overaction and alienation.

Which can turn a nice Woman into a BITCH.

Why these things happen I don't know???

Sir Whole of the Hearted Soul

Huh? If his foundation of being with the woman is gazing at her like she's some kind of porcelain shepherdess statue (because I doubt you'd like the full goddess kind), there's already trouble in your paradise and the meaningful conversations may prove to be loud indeed. And I shudder to think what kind of "overaction" you could be talking about because the man had forgotten to actually INTERACT with the woman like she's some kind of PERSON or something. My question to you is do you have this problem with all those women friends you reference? If not, then you should think about why your attitudes are SO different for a romantic interest that you find yourself having trouble interacting, and subsequently find yourself "overacting". I think you better reclaim a chunk of that heart 'n' soul, dude.

While we're at it, if his "overaction" brings on alienation, but that makes HER the "Bitch"? You sound just like the "nice guys" who whine about the women, cuttin' off that access, instead of dealing with the fact that women should always be "interacted" with just like we're real people or something before you try to cement us on that pedestal and make sacrifices of your soul (and evidently much of your brain matter). You blaming her for your inability to interact is classic HB "nice guy"

To both you guys, I just want to say that you give every indication of fitting some of the "nice guy" traits that have been written about by many different HBs. You wrote thinking you wanted to prove how you aren't THAT kind of "nice guy" (or how WE don't know what a realMAN nice guy is) but if you really didn't see yourselves in some of those writings, you wouldn't have written at all, or at least you wouldn't have felt a need to write here, when we're talking about *patterns* in guys who call themselves "nice" but whine about and blame women. Ask yourself what you were really trying to prove and to whom when you wrote to HBI. I think most nice guys would be better off if they really could be good friends with a women, rather than thinking of women as so "other" or thinking of us as princesses, prizes, conquests, sexual-witholders, or some kind of GOAL in your life. Good luck examining your attitudes.

bon