The latest comments from and about Nice Guys...
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 23:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sharon Cooper
Subject: Nice guys. Very much bleh.
I was reading over most of the comments posted in that
section and feel a serious need to go shower again.
Having had my last serious boyfriend being the
Sensitive New Age Nice Guy to end all Nice Guys, it
was like seeing Wussy McSpineless and all of his
clones just commenting over and over and over.
But I think I see what these guys' problem is. You
know...aside from the lack of a spine and the latent
misogyny? As long as they continue to act like women
are a separate species and, thus, not relate to us as
HUMAN BEINGS, they'll continue to alienate the
majority of us on sight or send those unfortunate
souls who actually date them (Bleh!)screaming into the
Keep up the fantastic work, ladies. The world
definately needs more websites as honest as this one.
Subject: RE Nice Guys
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:31:19 +0100
Great Article, great site; truly insightful , please keep it up.
Hi, here is my take on the 'nice guy' issue:
There is a lot of to and fro-ing and interest on the site regarding this
issue, and I think I have spotted why. Both sides of this debate have a
point, but they are, perhaps, talking about different things. Your
analysis of 'nice guy' syndrome is absolutely SPOT ON. You have
accurately dissected a very common pretence used by men to gain the
attention of women, a pretence that comes from insecurity and offers
nothing of value to the other person in the association. Men using this
pretence often become resentful because the tactic is often
unsuccessful. Ok, but here is my counter: The reason the tactic is so
unattractive to women is that it is, essentially, a crystallisation of
emotional cowardice, and cowardice has been unattractive to women, well,
for quite a while. However I think there is something to the
counter-argument, that hasn't been presented: Cowardice is unattractive
to women, in men, but not vice versa. Here, I think is the underlying
asymmetry that many men, responding to you sense but haven't aired. Of
course, members of both sexes can be insecure, emotional cripples, but
because of the perfectly legitimate preferences of women, men pay a
higher social price for this failing than women. Well, too see whether
this analysis actually holds any water I would have to change sex and be
a woman however, I feel this is the unaired 'complaint' underlying many
men's responses to you; "why do I have to grow up to get anywhere with
the opposite sex, yet women can do perfectly well with men and remain
children?" Of course, immature women often 'get' manipulative, insecure
men who make their lives hell, so whether the asymmetry is actually a
case of one sex having any 'advantage' is entirely debateable.
Many thanks for the site
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:49:07 +0100
Subject: What's Wrong with Nice Guys?
---note i do not authorise you to publish or forward my email address---
There is way more to this, i think you have just scratched the surface.
Im 21 and when i think back (from what i hear) to for instance my grandads time, women were these little things made of china, very easy to break, no decision making power etc etc
Now, what do we have, we have our equils, basically in the female form. Some of us still view them as china, others view them as equils and they can get what they give.
My point is that if you treat a girl with the same ruthlessness as you would a mate then you will never be having the problem, "she is such a bitch". (if you are then u arnt treating them like a male friend, if you were you would have told that guy to p*ss off by now)
Get my point.
women want to be treated as equils, so treat em as such. Yeh there is room for being nice to them (just like your nice to your mates in the pub) but as far as treating them like a china doll and being super nice, why??????
think about it this way, if your mate is super nice to you all the time, your gonna end up thinking he is a right ass licker and tell him to do one! Or you would take him for a ride, cheers for that pint mate, every day till ya get bored of him. Why would a girl think any differently?
And this shit about girls being cold hearted, well they really aint, its only cos we expect em to be all soft and emotional that we think they are soft hearted, on very few occasions would you ever cry or be loving and sympathetic to a guy who was crying his eyes out on some street, dont expect women just cos most of em fancy men, want to be all sympathetic and shit. Its bollox, however sayin that it is easier to be sympathetic to someone of the opposite sex, so maybe the girls doing this site really are cold hearted bitches??? who knows??
Learning all the time..........
Anyway, thats a dead brief and extreamly badly written portion of my mind, but i think ive hit a small nail on the head, so i thought ide share my thoughts.
Bed time, nackered
Give it some!!
From: "Kerry King"
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:02:51 -0500
Subject: RE: feedback
I perused your site, I found it interesting, being a Male I don't agree with everything there not so suprising I'm sure. Although maybe some men will get the message and stop being 'Nice Guys' etc and all that claptrap. At least you Women are taking the time to tell Men what you do and don't want, which is sorely needed.
I'm not sending this to flame or deride your gender or you as individuals, I'm sure you've heard many a story about Men being wronged or mistreated by Women which is always tiresome to hear, as is this converse.
What I'm about to say is not for sympathy - just an explanation of something that relates solely to me. For a long time I absolutely HATED women, and part of me still does. Not because of women as a whole - but because of one. If I had come across your site or material long ago I have no doubt I would of exploded in a fit of rage.
Was I Nice guy - no, just naive and trusting but I was a teenager at the time and had zero experience of women. Was I insecure no more than any normal teenager adjusting to emerging adult hood. I was taught by my traditional and conservative upbringing to respect women and be decent etc - all of which I wish I had never learned.
Did my Bane Girl as I term her dump me she sure did. Even though it was her who persued me but thats no big deal I can weather rejection without too much difficulty. That caused me to dislike women for a short time but I got through that with little fuss. Being a self centered male has it's advantages at times.
What did cause me to hate Women so much - was the deliberate attempt by her to destroy me with no explanation. See she was the daughter of a hi-ranking police officer and her Grand Parents lived across the road from me and her parents knew mine etc. Being 16 quite shy and nervous about sex with women I was extremely cautious and too nervous to engage in sexual activity with her, for fear of being caught and getting her pregnant, would of resulted in a great deal of grief for both of us, especially me. More than that given that situation I had assumed she would be decent and appreciate me respecting her, and while my attempts at being a boyfriend were clumsly I was but young and didn't know anything about being a boyfriend.
Even though her dumping me, caused me some amount of displeasure I was optimistic - there are always plenty of others out there that was fine by me. What I was not prepared for though was this.
She pretended to befriend me and my family again a short while later and was baby sitting my sister. This was just a veiled excuse to ransack my room looking for my friends contact numbers. She then proceeded to chase after and seduce friends of mine and did so deliberately in front of me with my so called best mate back then. Like an idiot I chose to make excuses for that behaviour till I found out about her ransacking my room, which is when it made sense or at least appeared to all be premeditated to get at me. As you can expect I was completely enraged and the best I got from her was a lame apology 'I'm sorry I hurt you' after which she even apologized to my Mum.
After that though - I certainly did feel hurt and upset and then the HATE set in and became quite satisfying at first. After a few failed attempts with the opposite gender shortly after my Bane Girl it just fueled my hate for Women to a point which was becoming dangerous for those around me and even me.
It got to the point where all I could think of was 'bashing' a woman senseless if she even looked at me, because I really believed they were just looking for a way to destroy me and sit back and laugh at my lament. Not a healthy attitude for anybody to have - which is why I totally abstained from any relationship; serious or casual or fleeting with any Woman for close to 5 years. I didn't want to do that - but I had no choice. If all I can do is think of hurting women whom I don't know because of the acts of one woman then I'm just contributing to my own misery and theirs.
In this time I developed a problem with alcohol, no I'm not alcoholic more I have an explosive temperment if I drink to much. So I abstain from alcohol as well since it's become clear I'm unpleasant at the least to be around when I'm drunk.
I'm grateful that I had that time on my own to sort out alot of the crap she left me with since I'm pretty well aware of my own behaviour and why I do the things I do. It makes me much more stable in a relationship, I have my ups and downs like everybody else but I adjust and make do as do we all. Although I'm probably over cautious in relationships now, it's become habit.
I do hate the fact I had to go so long on my own, because I missed out on so much with other women in that time. Maybe thats good or bad depending on how you want to see it I don't know. All I do know is in that time I didn't dump my stuff on anybody else and f...k some women up just because I had an axe to grind. Nor did I turn into a spousal abuser either, which is something I definately don't want to be. Even though it's uncomfortable to admit and acknowledge that I have the potential for it.
Was my Bane Girl a Bitch? Probably I don't know, to date though I've had no explanation from her and it's been quite some time. I have seen her a few times since then and she has made not one attempt to acknowledge me. So I can only surmise either she doesn't care and it's something she thinks is 'funny' or she feels bad about it and can't face me to explain it.
What do I want?
Something nobody can give me - as well all do in this situation. Not so much why did it happen to me, but why did she feel it necessary to do that to me. Did I do something to make her want to run a knife through me so visciously? While I can agree I wasn't perfect - I never did anything to ask for that, so why do I feel like I've been made to pay for it?
PS - keep the site going.
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Garby
Subject: on the topic of nice guys
Firstly, I'm a guy...
..but I have to agree with you 100% on what you had to say about that
mental illness poorly titled "Nice Guy Syndrome." There's nothing
"nice" about emotional dependence and self-loathing and certainly
nothing "nice" about coping through those issues at the expense of
someone else, woman or otherwise. I know these guys... I'm friends
with some of these guys and they just don't get it. They usually
have a predatory sense to go after the ladies who are on the "rebound"
like she's some juicy wounded animal. They'll probably marry the
first girl to even touch their cock, and that's just plain sad.
However... and you knew a "however" was coming... the claim that some women
like to be treated like shit is absolutely true. I've met and
fucked many. They're usually skanky narcissists that assume men
should automatically melt in their presence. When you don't melt, because she isn't anything special, they think you must be "cooler" than them... higher up on some kind of highschool foodchain they haven't matured out of yet. So, the more you treat her like shit, the more she needs to
please you. So after you have your fun with her, typically after
subjecting her to a sexual humiliation or two, you drop her.
These are the chicks "nice guys" usually fall for, because they're just
eye-candy a "nice guy" can center some ridiculous fantasy around.
It isn't misogynistic to treat these kinds of women like objects
because they are objects. There are plenty of wonderful gals out there worthy of being treated right, but no one is worthy of respect until they are willing to demand
repect. In this way I guess I'm the "asshole" the "nice guys" are
talking about, though no girlfriend I've ever had has ever accused me
of such a thing. On the contrary, I'm actually good friends with
several of my ex's, and on good terms with the rest.
Anyway, all that aside, bully for you for telling it like it is and
with any luck, educating the "nice guys" of the world to grow some
balls and get the fuck over it.
-keep the peace,
p.s. Tom Anderson, from comments round 18, said, "Intellectually, I was very confident, but not socially. I just think
differently than most people." This
is code for "I think I'm better than everyone, and if there's a
problem, it's that the cold, cruel world can't accept poor,
misunderstood-genius me." Even your friendliest hate-mail
is greasy with "niceness."