Comments on Nice Guys articles
Updated: Sept 3, 2002
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002
From: Theodoros Theodoropoulos <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: But everyone says I'm NICE
I wish I had found your website a couple of years ago. It would of saved me lots
of heartache and maybe even saved a couple of freindships. The thing about being
a "nice guy" is that there is no one out there to tell you that you really
aren't nice. No one to tell you to listen to that little voice in your head
telling you there is something wrong with buying this girl a sentemental gift on
her birthday when you're "just friends". Way too many people starved for romance
making movies about friends falling in love... are all screenwriters loser
guys?? I used to be that guy who becomes best friends with the girl he thinks he
can't get a date with. I knew I had a crush on this girl. I'd tell myself that
she is the only person that really talks to you and thats why you like her, but
rational thoughts like that don't help if you don't make the decision to get out
of a situation. In the end she kissed me and dumped me. All my considerate
behavior flew out the window when she no longer wanted to be "friends".
Obviously this girl is a manipulative little trik. It wasn't that I latched on
to someone with self esteem as low as mine and manipulated her into thinking I
was the only nice guy she'd ever meet and she decided to do the only healthy
thing for herself and get rid of me. Its really hard to get over youself and
admit you have problems. Its hard for us fixers to stop helping everyone else
with *their* problems and even harder to go through therapy and fix *yourself*.
Now I talk to girls, ask them out, go on dates, and actually risk rejection.Its
a whole lot harder than waiting for my friend to come home from her date and go
for a walk with me, but its also a whole lot healthier. I'm so glad my heart was
broken by a heartless bitch because now I have a chance to have a real
relationship with a girl. If I ended up with a "puffed up princess" she probably
would of ended up married to an emotionally manipulitive little shit. The best
advice I can give to a "nice guy" is probably to go get some male friends. Not
all guys are jerks. You can learn a lot from the good ones. Also, listen to
"Tool" :-) and umm go to therapy!
- hoping that one day I too will be dating a heartless bitch,
Ted (sadly, with a name like Ted I'll probably cheat on my wife some day)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002
I've never called myself a 'nice guy' but your articels on them where really
worthwile reading. I finally saw some of the errors of my ways (indeed, I
realized there where errors, at all) ... The sections I could relate to (of
course from the opposing standpoint) almost tore me apart. Violently so since I,
for the first time realized, what *I* have done to my Ex instead of only
thinking about what she has done to me. Also for the first time it came to me
how pathetic some of my reasoning and behavior really was.
I sincerely thank you gals!
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:23 -0400
nice article on "nice guys", I especially liked the way you imply there's a
difference between a woman wanting a healthy relationship and woman that uses
men....then procede to ignore the difference between a nice guy and a wuss. I do
acknowledge however that it does indeed put unfair pressure on women to ask them
what they'd like to do on a date...
are there anyother questions that stress your
faculties?..."how are you?" "what's your name?" oh and the nice guy of course
must be a wimp for playing the role of a friend and not asking the girl out from
the get go...
heaven forbid that a woman take some responsiblity and initiate
things. Of course by your definition ANY responsiblity placed on the womans
shoulders is unfair.
Bad Timing on romance?!!??....this from a gender that bitches and complains that
men don't remember the 6 month aniversary of the first time we shared an
umbrella....and then tells us they want romantic gifts on random days "just
because" we have to be romantic at just the right time and know what that time
is without hints from you because "that's unfair pressure"
Oh I know the nice guy syndrom very well...it's also called the emotional
tampon, see that's when the girl dumps all of her sad stories on a guy that's
"just a friend"...usually lasts about a weekend a month, then goes back to
sleeping with the guy that cheated on her...who she can't break up with because
"she loves him"
I now know the answer to the aged old question "what do women want?".....the correct response is "I'll let you know as soon as they figure it out"
From: "Europa Aficionado" "email@example.com"
Subject: My Compliments
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:02:08 +0200
I am writing because I wish to applaud the web site. You have
successfully created a medium which combines entertainment with social
relevance. Whether or not this was intentional, doesn't matter, it is
still pretty good. As a (former)Social Scientist, I can see the
direction you are taking the feminism/battle-of-the-sexes issue and you
actually handle it deftly. The theme is a little one sided, but that is
what makes it entertaining.
On a personal note, I can see the err in my ways about being a "Nice Guy".
The section devoted strictly to that topic states some very valid points
and words are not minced.
Congratulations on a job well done.
From: "Henry Westerman" firstname.lastname@example.org
Subject: Confused and Curious...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:00:17 -0400
While I read some of the stuff about your
definition of a "nice guy," I recognized myself from a different time
when all girls are unattainable. I was quite stupid, and I'll gladdly
admit that I used to be that way.
I have since then grown
out of that... shell, I suppose, and thought about things differently. I
will admit, though, that I never thought there was a conspiracy to
girls. Even when I saw girls constantly getting hurt by some guys, I
knew that they weren't doing it to spite me or anyone else... unless
that was the purpose of the relationship and it came back to bite them
in the arse (something I've seen a lot of in my
neighborhood). Especially when a bunch of my girl friends came to
me for help and comfort over such things as being told that they had
someone else who was prettier that he was going to "be with"
I realize that no guy is going to be perfect, myself
included. I also realize that no girl will ever be absolutely perfect,
even if my heart says otherwise.
I do find it quite
insulting that one guy would list attractive as a necessity for being a
nice girl and not being a nice guy. I'm hardly incredibly cute, but I'm
not ugly either. I can listen to girl troubles for a time, but find
the necessity to talk or tell them to stop bitching about how
something didn't go the way they wanted after a while.
do things to help people because I don't mind the occasional burden,
knowing it helps someone else. I let stuff roll off because I'd rather
be calm than angry. At the same time, I am not against using words or
whatever when someone becomes rude or asshole-ish enough to the point
that they don't deserve the benefit they get from insulting me or trying
to "lower my self-esteem." I am not spineless, but I'm hardly incredibly
heroic or courageous either.
As for my romantic side,
well, I don't really have one yet. I am sweet to the ladies I find
myself interested in (I put it that way because I don't believe in
having any set guidelines in what I like in women, it's a stupid bias
and you may very well miss someone special because they don't like
skating or certain music, and that's just stupid!). But I have had only
one relationship beyond "friends" as of yet, broken off by my own hand
when I realized that she is rather desparate to get away from her mother
and off into life... which included a lot of talk of getting married and
such. I'm not afraid of a big relationship like that... I just don't
like being at that point only a week in a half into the relationship.
Because of all of this, I am very much a virgin in almost every sense of
the word. I think the Amish might have problems with me having kissed a
girl or two, but there wasn't even any tongue involved, so I doubt
they would care too much :)
As for hobbies, I have plenty,
although I'll be the first to admit that they are probably considered
quite geeky or lame by most. I am a big fan of gaming (PC to be exact)
and I find interest in Dungeons & Dragons. I draw a lot, including
work on a webcomic that mirrors my life and constantly pokes fun at it.
I also do concept art for modd
[Why is he telling us this? This isn't a dating service...]
Well, that's me in a nutshell. And I'm confused.
I don't really meet your definition of those
evil "nice guys."
[We didn't say they were evil. Just Fucked up.]
But at the same time, I'm not sure I meet the
conditions of being a B.A.S.T.A.R.D. guy either. So I'm curious... what
am I then? Good or Evil? Yin or Yang? Or am I just in the gray?
[What is with the whole black and white thing? Maybe if you stopped trying to label yourself and just figured out how to LIKE yourself, you wouldn't have to come to places like HBI looking for advice...]
Henry "Demosthenes" Westerman
Subject: The Nice Guys thing...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:45:38 -0500
Right on the money. I'm 34/m/single; thinking the only thing you might
add is, "Being nice is not enough..." because I think some men think it
And now, a couple of guest editorial-reviews from the lovely JadeSyren... (and yes, we do share the funniest ones with the SAMOTURE, and laugh about you.)
[This next one sounds like he swallowed a sociology textbook (wrong way to consume
[The only response I can think of is, "were you reading OUR article?"]
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:05:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: bankruptcy of love in post-modern world
Dear Heartless Bitch(es),
In response to the article about nice guys being
"losers," I think the author of this article
unwittingly demonstrates the bankruptcy of sincere,
platonic love in the post-modern, deconstructionist
world. Self-centered individualism has rendered
ruthless, self-serving power exploitation as the
pre-requisite for all human relationships between
men and women. The author of this article shows that
women are now just as likely to deceive and defraud
sincere, committed men for their own selfish
motives, at virtually any emotional expense to their
companion(s), as men may have been more apt
to do in the past. It's no coincidence that
dysfunctionality has become the prime definition of
modern-day gender relations ever since the 1970s and
self-empowering women's organizations like "NOW"
running amok with their angry social agendas. It
amounts to gender warfare on all fronts.
[What he really means is that women's morality has degraded since the
fifties, and SEE WHAT GETTING OUT OF THE KITCHEN got you!?]
Hey, this is a free-market capitalist society--you
don't think living in a society where desparate,
merciless strife is a fundamental attribute of daily
life is going to have a negative impact on all human
[Oh, he did not go to "It's the ECONONY, stupid," did he?]
The real tragedy here is that because of angry,
selfish people like the author of this article, the
institution of marriage can also be officially
declared bankrupt. Happy, successful, life-long
[Marriage was bankrupt LONG before. It started when you started letting
us wear shoes and do our own shopping, but then you really have to blame
That's what REALLY let marriage down.
(And that makes about as much sense, doesn't it?) ]
marriages are dying out with our grandparents, and
because of angry women
like this who are proud of being "heartless bitches"
[...who are tired of just putting up with weak ass, co-dependent men.
Gone are the "better than nothing," "scared to be a spinster" days, and with
them went YOUR last hope for being laid on the regular.]
and actively seek to promote something as cruel and
insensitive as exploiting "nice guys" for their own
[EXPLOITING THEM? They exploit themselves. If anything, we've provided
a map so you weaklings won't get duped anymore. Look at the gratitude
it makes celibacy that much more palatable
[Thank god. Maybe people like you won't breed then. You'll be doing us all a great Service.]
for the many men alienated and disillusioned by the many women who have adopted
such LOATHSOME attitudes!
[There are worse fates than being alone. Just call us Loathesome-Bitches. Kinda has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?]
I hope the fucking BITCH-ASS CUNT who wrote that
article about nice guys being "losers" reads this e-mail and
sees that predatory, insincere, manipulative
WHORES like her are what make this world the rotten
fucking place it is.
[Actually, those are the women who exploit the "nice guys." We want
nothing to do with them. But then, we want nothing to do with guys like you either.]
Ever yours sincerely,
[Yeah...AS IF you wouldn't date us if given the chance.]
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002
Subject: Male Flame form : David
Dear Heartless Bitches.
I apologize for utilizing this contact utility as opposed to some other,
but Ms. Bon seems to despise when men e-mail her in reference to the
writings of some other heartless bitch, and, well, at this point in my
life, I just don't apply for things.
[Already we have the sulky petulance. Bon has said she doesn't like it. Now he's whining about how we won't let him talk to us the way HE wants to do it. There are contact links a plenty, it's not like he had to use THIS one.]
For the most part, based on what I've read of your site, I admire what
you've done (in particular with regards to the economic independence bits
at the beginning of the article lists... newspapers don't publish stats
on young women and debt in this country. But I'm sure you
know....) However, I must take issue with:
["And some of my best friends are black."]
The several pieces on nice guy bad.
[Jane good? Tarzan bad.]
I know, I know, you're stunned. It's clearly a shock to you that anyone,
ever, could find fault in what are obviously well-conceived pieces with
careful consideration of both sides, and no hyperbole whatsoever.
[It's a shock to me that people are so willing to confess what their neuroses are to a complete stranger. You protesteth too much.]
See here's my prob: I was labeled a nice guy in my youth.
[And you still refuse to take responsibility. I was labeled an Oreo in my youth, but that doesn't make me a cookie. Are you, or aren't you, and why are you still nursing this grudge?]
(Am turning 30 soon). In fact, there were a number of women who saw me
as a pillar of strength and support, and, likely, not somebody
they'd ever fuck. Further, I did very little to disabuse them of this
notion (this no doubt
[Try seeing yourself through your OWN eyes.]
makes me extremely manipulative, etc.). I was, for a lot of them,
somebody they didn't think about--that way.
[Yes, it does make you manipulative. Why didn't you find people who would...you know...think of you THAT way instead of hanging around people who were using YOU?]
It was such a common thing, that I would, betimes, have not one, but two
or even three women as my close personal friend. The one they'd call on
when things got bad. And they, of course, were keeping me around... just
[So why did you stick around? Did you like being their doormat? Conversely, what gratification did YOU derive from having NOT ONE, but two or even three women as your personal friend.]
I've lost track of how many... there were literally over 100 such women
"friends" in my life, between the time I was 16-ish and 24, all of whom
saw me as some kind of emotional support, and all of whom would only fuck
me next, if at all. And here's the thing, I never, just like a weaselly
evil nice guy would, said much to disabuse them of the notion that I was
any such thing, nor did I ask them out beyond to safe functions like a
movie. Hell, I was so indecisive (indifferent?), after six weeks (and
you know how it is with women and nice guys, they get more and more
belittling to draw out some kind of response or whatever), I often
wouldn't even say where the line was.
[I don't see where you're different than the other "nice guys" so far.]
They tended to know, of course. The last such one, a 6' redhead, truth be
told, actually said that, you know, she'd be my girlfriend if I went to
England, but not if I stayed in that town--Baltimore. And from the look
I gave her, being too stunned, really, to even whip out a clever comment
about how the great virtue of "road pussy" was where that you found it
and left it, she knew she'd crossed the line, and that that was pretty
much that. (One more phone call...)
[But you digress, don't you. Why does it matter to me that she's a 6' redhead, anyway?]
[You're coming through in waves, David.]
But here's the wild part. While I was being "friends" to these young
women (remembering what they'd said about their days, etc.--never
consider fucking a guy like that--EVER), I was, on the side if you will,
dating considerably older women.
[You will be moving in a circular motions that leads to a point, right?]
I wasn't getting laid all the time, but I wasn't racking up credit card
debt from porn, strippers and hookers either. My college attracted a lot
of part-timers, I preferred to go to class late, smokers bond, etc.,
etc.--so I went with hairdressers, real estate agents, shopkeepers, (more
the latter, fewer issues with self-employed women). Now, again, one of
your articles points out that young men with dicks are the way to go,
perhaps these ladies agreed, I hope so. These sorts of things were fun,
not particularly serious, ending as they did, and move on.
The nice guy thing? Well, it's kind of a function of environment. If
you grew up in a household where dad kinda went from mom for a few years,
while mom had two-handed conversations with herself doing 70 on an interstate,
[It's not MY fault I'm a mewling loser...I come from a DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY. Boy, that's rich.]
you just learned to pay attention, grab the wheel, etc. Once that
attentiveness muscle is built up, it never really atrophies. Today my
wife is sometimes freaked out that I can remember... but I'm getting
ahead of myself.
[Relax, swiftie, you're still way behind.]
See, the thing with the women I was "friends" with--I just kinda knew. I
mean, you go along, and there I was,
[No, YOU go along.]
attentive, too serious for the "casual fuck" phase of her life, I perhaps
enjoyed being "friends" with the more flawed among them because, well,
they were sorta interesting. But that's all it was. (Indeed, a couple
of these "friends" did set up "seduction type" things, usually when I had
my eye on another, not flawed woman... so I never hit it; we're on the
bed here at least three times.) With one exception, I never really tried
(last nights in town--note to you men out there... find another outlet...
remember no rules or standards... but stay away... AWAY!)
[When did I ask for you life story?]
Why didn't I? Well, the first such friend, after I'd dropped out of high
school, had a shitty apartment, worked in a pizza dive, etc., I did have
an unrequited thing for. Major. I was a 16-year-old virgin. However,
by the time she sorta came around, (such a rock, only one I can go to), I
was not a virgin any longer (another 16-year-old from another pizza
dive... only time in my life I've ever dated someone younger, if you can
call it dating.) So, to be hearing that "only one I can talk to, why
didn't I see it" spiel, at that particular moment, made me a bit
suspicious. And it of course turns out that she was four months pregnant
with another guy's kid and needed a place to stay... no. Call him. Call
your mom. Not here, not mine; just slacking off for a few years not
blowing my life on somebody else's that.
[When you are a doormat, people will wipe their feet on you.]
Having had that experience, while I gradually moved away from the shitty
jobs scene into college (started at 19, finished at 21),
[Love that crucial bit of info. Is your ego so deflated that you have to pump it up to US?]
whenever other women were "friends" with me--dorm mates, classmates,
etc., I was a bit wary, albeit polite and attentive. (And over time, I
gradually got tired of the more flawed ones... never liked Goth music
[When it comes to flawed people, opposites do NOT attract, unless you consider plugs and sockets to be opposites, when they're just different sides of the extension cord.]
I'm perhaps overstating my sophistication here.
[No, not sophistication. You just keep stating "I'm NOT a loser"
over and over again. Come back when YOU'RE convinced.]
There were lots of dumb sure I'll be there puppy dog moments. But
fewer and fewer with time. (That last one, only time we met in
person--I'd known her from college, but this was different--was when she
give me the England speech... rest was friend phone calls; I knew what
was coming, but she was the last person from my college, so slack was
given. And before I get labeled a freaky uncommunicative whatever, no,
she had a choice. If she cared about me, it was the wrong one.)
[Why a 30 year old "sophisticate" gives a damn about what people
think of him is beyond me. Why are you still telling us about all the
names you were called. Wah.]
I'm happily married now. To a Chinese woman (shock).
[Why? Why is that a shock. We don't know you, or do you mean something stinkier?]
For four years. Though of course I'm so controlling that we stay in
an area (DC suburbs) that I've never much liked (save for great Chinese,
Vietnamese, etc. food), because of her job... and in fact took a job I
despised so we could stay and have benefits (she was contracting for a
news organization); of course she's now kinda returning the favor--I
learned IT and built a business at my old shitty job, could get us
health care, but hers is slightly better... and I pay my required
withholding unlike somebody....
[Like fucked up people don't get married?
Who are you casting that particular aspersion towards, anyway?]
The reason for dumping my rambling biography upon you ladies is that I
wonder if, perhaps, some of your writers are now starting to demonize the
nice guy type. If you've got a sort of younger readership, for example. I've
[You could have started right here, chump. I think there were other motives behind your rambling memoirs, and none of them good.]
noticed that college-age women are rather impressionable (went to school
in early '90s, when Take Back the Night was at its peak.)
[That's when I dated your dad, you manipulative creep. You're really condescending, and a whining loser (I read your autobiography) such as yourself really can't afford to be.]
While I don't think Nice Guys are ever going to be looked upon as the
date-raping maniacs college athletes, frat boys and for a time there all
men were, if the stereotype spreads a bit too far (and young women began
[And we live in a polarized world. Love me, ladies, for I am not a date-raping college jock, and I want credit because I'm attempting to be exactly what I should be...a decent person.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg talked about men as fathers, but she could have been talking about men as people, too. "A woman that does less than everything is seen as a terrible mother, yet a man that does more than nothing is seen as a good father."
So WHAT that you're not a great big giant loser, you still suck if you're a "nice guy."]
men who perhaps have no opinion about where to eat dinner that
evening), some smidgen of harm might creep him.
No, not to the nice guy. They're fucked for the most part.
[They're fucked UP, life doesn't do that to them...but you little victims are ALWAYS blaming others. The people who label you, your parents who raised you, the women who shun you.]
(In literature, there's a lot of interest in the "other woman..." ever
meet a guy who wanted to be the "other man?")
[I actually fucked a few, why?
But if young woman start dissing guys right and left, they might run into
a problem that older women have when they get, um, older.
Infidelity is not a gender issue.]
[And that's a fate worse than death, right? I'll agree it's not
right to randomly DISRESPECT people (Mr. I'm-Jiggy-wit'-da-Lingo...you
must really think you're talking to schoolkids), women have every
right...people have every right to shun the willfully ignorant, stupid,
jerks, abusers and various other dregs.]
See, what all the more mature ladies I went with had in common was this
regret. (The same regret.) "Right guy
[Doesn't that tell you that you were in a rut, and because you
were looking at it from a different view doesn't mean that you actually
GOT OUT OF IT.
Whether you were with the youthful or experienced, you were dating unhealthy people.]
came along, once, but I blew it because..." of no good reason in
retrospect. (Curiously, a few younger women I once knew, the
less-flawed, have apparently said the same thing about this old, um,
friend of theirs... but they must have meant another friend.)
Now, this is hardly a new phenomenon. Heck, even that 300-pound cashier
at Sleven has a story 'bout the one that got away. But, are you that
sure you need to be demonizing a guy who's more attentive than you're
used to as a "WHINY FREAK OUT TO CONTROL AND ABUSE?"
[There are many ways to abuse people, David. Beating on them is
but one of them. What does a 300lb cashier have to do with
Perhaps a bit of consideration is in order. Or not. Flame away.
[Side Note: He put an x here, yet answered the dick length question.]